The Rio Cubic (aka the Carbon C): what could have been (part II)

We hate to reopen old wounds and all, but a good friend of Engadget's (who asked to be referred to as "a former senior Rio employee currently enjoying the Silicon Sun") did us the service of sending over actual device shots of the Rio Cubic, the working title for what was to be the Carbon C 30GB player. From what we understand, the device was 30GB and expected to actually hit 60GB with a 30 hour battery life, as well as having the kind of support we all came to know and love from Rio players, like OGG, FLAC, WMA, PlaysForSure, and eventually even Audible. The story goes: the final firmware was about to get signed off, the hardware was done, and the production run was on the verge of beginning when D&M pulled the plug. We'll try not to dwell on the painful topic of Rio's death too much longer, but our source did want to sign off to all the Rio fans with the following:

These photos are shared with all the Rio fanboys and fangirls by former employees who also loved Rio products.  We were dedicated to ensuring they were unmatched in audio quality and audio features, which were always our highest priorities. They're shared as a small thank you to the Rio community for your loyalty and support to the first commercial Digital Audio Player that fought to set the legal precedents and laid the groundwork for a new market and everything that has followed. We miss Rio as much as you do. Thanks!

And now a moment of silence for Rio, gone but not forgotten. Click on for a ton more shots of the Cubic, or pick up the unreleased Carbon C manual here.

[syadasti @ Jan 16th 2006 11:24AM]

There is still no dedicated digital audio player on the market that matches the Rio Karma circa 2003.



The good new is is that Sigmatel chips are used in most major mp3 products (Apple, Creative, etc) and we'll probably see the superior technology from Rio team in one of Rio's former competitors products when the new Sigmatel chips make their way out into the wild.

[Ici @ Jan 16th 2006 11:34AM]

I think I just shed a tear.....

[ruttiger @ Jan 16th 2006 11:39AM]

Makes me want to cry!! My Karma is still alive and kicking and I have no immediate thoughts to buy an Ipod (or other) until they can match the Karma's feature set.



Sad, sad, sad, sad this never hit the shops.

[Sam Stringer-Hye @ Jan 16th 2006 11:40AM]

Although the Karma's build quality was shit, this thing broke if you touched a feather to it, it still beat out the iPod in every way. I wish Rio would make a come back.

[l @ Jan 16th 2006 11:48AM]

Wait a second, it's bigger and without the awesome Blackberry-like scroll wheel? Sucks to that! Imma buy an old Rio!

[Nick Williams @ Jan 16th 2006 11:53AM]

How many of these do they have and how much will it take for them to part with one? =D

[umijin @ Jan 16th 2006 11:54AM]

I had an S-Series flash player, and it was solid. Worked with iTunes on my Mac, and the tech support was great. They kept improving the firmware for a year after it was released. I've yet to use an ipod that was so simple and rugged (yeah, I have a nano and a 3G iPod).

[Eugene @ Jan 16th 2006 11:55AM]

My ipod mini (6GB, blue) has just laughed its ass off.

[Max Fun @ Jan 16th 2006 11:57AM]

Argh. It looks ugly as sin. But it's still better looking than the Zen Micro, and has Ogg support, so it's still not too bad.

[Arcsine @ Jan 16th 2006 11:58AM]

Damn :(



It is sad to see that this was so close. I am listening to my Karma now as I write this, and babying it as much as possible because there just aren't any other players that can compete with the MUSIC features that this thing has...

[JK @ Jan 16th 2006 12:08PM]

What the hell is that thing? That's the ugliest iPod I've ever seen.

[mikentosh @ Jan 16th 2006 12:19PM]

Yawn

[cmonkey @ Jan 16th 2006 12:35PM]

*sigh*

It obviously wouldn't have been an iPod killer (they are now too much of a cultural icon to be killed), but I want one! 60gb and yet barely bigger than my 5gb Carbon. Rio, you will be missed.

[PeteC @ Jan 16th 2006 12:36PM]

First off, yes of course its bigger, but that's a carbon its compared to so I'm not suprised its a little bigger and since there are actually 30 gigs packed in there its therefore pretty small IMHO.



Secondly, thanks a bunch Engadget for making me cry at work, now I've lost all my street cred :-(

[no3rdw @ Jan 16th 2006 12:39PM]

I don't get it. Rio was great at first, I had a bunch of old Rio players (the PMP300, then the SE model, then the very next model)... which were fine, but their build quality got horrible as new products were released. My brother, my cousin, and I all got the high-end mp3 cd player from Rio (the black one with FM receiver and inline remote) for one Christmas and ALL THREE were broken by Spring (with normal use, handling it carefully). That thing was the worst designed piece of electronics I've ever owned. The later flash players were just as bad too. They would break so quickly. I never owned a Karma/Carbon/Whatever because by that point I had had it with Rio's inferior products.



So what's the big deal about this unreleased player? There are probably a dozen no-name players out that do all the same things as this model would have.

[pupil @ Jan 16th 2006 12:53PM]

http://www.rockbox.org



That's your answer! This open source firmware on the iRiver HD series is the absolute business! I've got a H140, the 300 series FW is lagging a little behind in development but still fairly functional. Shame about Rio, but it's time to move on people!

[supersocialist @ Jan 16th 2006 1:04PM]

That ugly-ass corner jog wheel was the Carbon's Achilles' Heel and I'm glad they would have gotten rid of the damn thing. I dropped mine from two feet, onto carpet, and that busted the wheel. I was able to glue it back on and that lasted six more months, and that was that. Looks to me like they were about to get it right when the plug came out.

[bazald @ Jan 16th 2006 1:11PM]

Oh so sad... I would destroy my recently purchased Cowon iAudio X5 for a 50% chance of getting the 60 GB version of this player :(

[Chris Robinson @ Jan 16th 2006 1:30PM]

#15, that might be the only thing that'll convince me to get an iPod in the future. At last Rockbox will hopefully be on a player that's actually available to buy!



Though for now, I'll stick with my H120, at least until it breaks.

[mrk @ Jan 16th 2006 2:06PM]

"My ipod mini (6GB, blue) has just laughed its ass off."



Burn in the fires of hell. Enjoy your shit audio quality, broken album playback, and lack of an EQ.



"So what's the big deal about this unreleased player? There are probably a dozen no-name players out that do all the same things as this model would have."



This was a smaller Karma with more features, twice the battery life, and a color screen. No player in the two year time period since the Karma came out has been able to match the Karma's features. Not one.



A huge, huge thanks to the guy/gal who posted this pics. A part of me just died inside :(...

[tom @ Jan 16th 2006 2:07PM]

It looks like iRiver is going the same way as Rio did (except only in Europe) because it just sacked its whole Europe PR team and is moving its Europe headquaters from Germany to Korea.

[CWY @ Jan 16th 2006 2:43PM]

Why are they pouring salt on my open wounds? Untill something comes out that's better than my Karma, I'm not buying a new mp3 player.

[Graham H. @ Jan 16th 2006 2:48PM]

wow, its really terrible to see how close we were. i owned a rio fuse and later a carbon (both of which broke, heh) that i loved dearly, and were incredible bargains. amazingly, no one since has been able to come up with a player that has fully tactile controls, quick and precise navigation, and a complete EQ. here's hoping those rio techs and engineers find positions and archos, creative, iriver, samsung, and cowon and bring their brilliant design skills with them.

[Beans @ Jan 16th 2006 4:41PM]

"So what's the big deal about this unreleased player? There are probably a dozen no-name players out that do all the same things as this model would have."



Not even close. As far as I know, there isn't a single player out there with a fully customizable parametric EQ, gapless album playback or true on-the-fly running playlist features out of the box, nevermind all in the same player.



Add in the built-in mini-web server (RMML) that allows you to sync via the built-in ethernet port on the docking station (included in the box).



Add in the on-board dynamic playlists: Similar to the Smart Playlist feature on iTunes, but on the device, meaning, no need to re-sync. Instead, the Karma itself knows when and how many times you've listened to each track.



Like others have said, 2.5 years after its release, no other player on the market today can match the Karma's on-board music playing features. Only the 3rd party Rockbox firmware comes close.

[Silver @ Jan 16th 2006 4:51PM]

"Burn in the fires of hell. Enjoy your shit audio quality, broken album playback, and lack of an EQ."



Bitter much? We realize now that you 1) don't have an iPod, and 2) are terribly depressed about it but don't want to admit it, but really...



That Rio interface looks so...1995.

[ThePete @ Jan 16th 2006 5:08PM]

Hey, we all remember our first mp3 player and mine was the very first Rio to ever come out--when was it? 1998 or '99? So long ago, I don't even remember. I think Clinton was in office and Star Wars was still cool.



Though I'm an iPod man now, I've got tremendous respect for the guys who were the early adopters of this new world of DAPs. Rio helped change the world. Sure, they're players weren't perfect (mine had a flakey headphone jack) but they were the first.

[evilsmevil @ Jan 16th 2006 5:21PM]

I Was also a Karma owner (alas the poor mite broke after just over a week of use) But i would still say that it remains unmatched compared to anything else that has ever been released. Everything about its execution (apart from its durability) was flawless. The included cradle could even be set to pulsate in time to the music! Sadly it will probably never be bettered :sob:

[mrk @ Jan 16th 2006 5:40PM]

"Bitter much? We realize now that you 1) don't have an iPod, and 2) are terribly depressed about it but don't want to admit it, but really..."



I like how you completely ignored my argument and accused me of wanting an iPod. Genius. Why would I want a piece of shit that STILL can't play back albums correctly after 5 main iterations, 2 minis, shuffles, nanos, and what have you? And honestly... I'm using Shure E4s, and I'd really prefer not to have a bass roll-off to to a headphone-jack defect, thanks. EQs are a useful feature, too.



"That Rio interface looks so...1995."



You'd better thank Rio for that interface, because you'd never have your iPod, with it's dumbed-down-idiot menus included. Also, myself and many others find the Rio interface to be speedier, more intuitive, and display more information at once.



kthx.

[LycoLoco @ Jan 16th 2006 5:52PM]

"Bitter much? We realize now that you 1) don't have an iPod, and 2) are terribly depressed about it but don't want to admit it, but really..."



1) He doesn't have an iPod, and he's thankful for that. The iPod might not be the worst DAP out there, but it's surely one of the lower ones



2) We should all be saddened by the loss of a better DAP. What has the iPod had added to it, save video playback, that has been major? Nothing. This DAP has it all.

[Silver @ Jan 16th 2006 10:37PM]

I find all the iPod hate amusing. The market has shown that 99% of consumers obviously don't care about the features you deem to be so critical in your DAPs. Which is fine - some people have specialized needs and want specialized equipment. So buy what you want. But to denigrate the iPod as some lowly, featureless and classless player is laughable. It does everything most of us want with grace, style, and elegance. Which is why we (i.e. 80% of the marketplace) buy them.



And my iPod has been serving me flawlessly on an almost daily basis since I bought it in May 2003. When other DAPs can't function for even six months (based on some of the posts here), are you surprised to not see them gain a loyal following?



I'd like to see improved audio quality in the iPod. We agree on that. Equalizer - don't really care. Radio tuner - don't really care. Support for obscure audio formats - don't really care. Extensive on-the-go playlist features - don't really care. Complex customizable file system - don't really care. Nor do most other buyers, apparently.



By "idiot menus" on the iPod, I assume you mean menus that "just work." Because anything simple must be stupid, right?



The visuals on that dead Rio look like an interface from my Mac in 1990. Seriously. Which is fine, some people don't care. Though I guess it doesn't matter, since the Rio is DOA. Spit and sputter all you'd like.



All the "I hate the iPod" (or "burn in the fires of hell" for cripes sake???) comments every time a story is posted about a DAP are just sour grapes. Or shills from other DAP manufacturers who can't find a way to sell their product.

[Silver @ Jan 16th 2006 10:39PM]

"myself and many others find the Rio interface to be speedier, more intuitive, and display more information at once."



So go buy a Rio. Oh, wait...

[jbelkin @ Jan 16th 2006 11:21PM]

You guys should really take a long look at yourselves - basically you loath the iPod so much and anyone who would think of buying anything 'popular,' you'll actualy buy and keep buying a product most of you CLEARLY admit in your comments that they break easily or were crappy to use but you're willing to spend the exact same money just so you can sneer at other people. How blind we are to buy something that does not break within the week and yet, you are willing to step right up & buy it again - what kind of standards do you have as a consumer where you'll blindly buy a poorly made product that you admit is ugle and HUGE in size for something where portability is required? ... Just because it has a longer checklist of features? Honestly, you can tell an OGG file being played back on $50 headphones versus mp3? Test it out yourself. If your self worth is so wrapped up in having to buy only non-popular items just to prove something (what, I have no idea), clearly you have bigger problems and really ought to sit down and examine yourself.

[japroach @ Jan 17th 2006 1:21AM]

wtf is with you ipod fanboys?



This was a story about an unreleased rio player, why did you bother making a comment?



You have clearly never owned a rio, and probably never used one, so what say do you have in this?



You are worse than the ipod haters, now gtfo.

[Babs @ Jan 17th 2006 1:32AM]

iPod isn't dominating the market through quality, but by sheer marketing dominance, knowing that the herd will follow what the idiot box says is cool.



Those who adore the iPod without realizing that it was not only not the first MP3 player on the market, but also relatively inferior, but marketing casualties doomed to bankrupt themselves with cheap crap.

[bruce m. @ Jan 17th 2006 2:25AM]

I suspect the iPod will catch up to the audio features and quality of the Carbon C fairly soon now ... I know they are working on a realtime graphic equalizer to replace the tired old iPod equalization presets. Apple just released an FM tuner option ... so it's clear Apple is now going to address the remaining gripes about it's player by adding features and correcting problems ...



Just imagine: Apple sold 14 MILLION iPods last quarter ... the efficiencies of scale and engineering resources they have at hand now will make them unstoppable for quite some time. Of course Rio shined in a few areas (some of they key like audio quality) but the iPod is coming into it's own and indeed far surpassing what anyone else has or can come up with at the present time.

[Galicki @ Jan 17th 2006 2:26AM]

> Honestly, you can tell an OGG file being played back on $50 headphones versus mp3? Test it out yourself.



I have and yes I can. I use the Sony EX51's < $50 and I hate all my crap that I transferred from my Zen that I encoded in mp3. And yes, play me the exact same song in mp3 and ogg and I can tell the difference. I hate when people say OGG is just some Linux nerds format. Its clearly superior and I would NEVER buy an mp3 only player.

[Marty @ Jan 17th 2006 2:30AM]

#32, the issue here is that you need to vote with you wallet. Fortunately, theres a lot of people that value innovation, rather than a product that sells because either:

a) people dont know any better

b) people dont want to stray from what the current marketplace image of "cool" is

c) people value an easy to use interface over any innovative features whatsoever.



I dont want a stagnant marketplace where companys r&d departments dont have to try to do anything but copy featuresets from the competition and claim it as their own. Do you think we'd have anything past the gen 1 ipods if they didnt have any competition?



Screw it.. ill be an early adopter. Me and the rest of us are helping you guys in the end so just remember that.

[bruce m. @ Jan 17th 2006 2:35AM]

OH -- and to the idiots who always insiste the "stupid herds are being brainwashed by Apple marketing into buying iPods" -- you are simply retarded. Apple marketing mostly sucks -- sillhouettes of crackheads dancing in front of brightly colored backgrounds? WTF? You're honestly saying that THIS is what makes people buy an iPod, and not the experience they get when they actually try one at the Apple store, or the word of mouth of their best friend? Have you ever owned and lived with an iPod? My apologies to all the rebels that can't stand that iPod is popular, but you've gotta remember there's a reason for this popularity and try and not be a condescending prick by insisting that all consumers are brainless lemmings who will by anything put in front of their face. iPods are expensive, highly complex devices -- and consumers are smartly placing their bet on the device that is least likely to disspoint them and most likely to provide countless hours of entertainment. You might be reading this and thinking OMG another crazy iPod fanboy, but believe me I've owned almost every other product on the market -- and again, there is a REASON i'm writing this, and it isn't Apple's colorful dancing crackheads on TV.

[lee @ Jan 17th 2006 4:39AM]

Sorry to derail the nostalgia train, but I won't be missing Rio much at all.



I owned one of their players before I got my iPod(s)- a Rio600 32MB player, WAY back in the day. It was small, cute, sounded okay- and it also became effectively usuable after just a few months. The buttons under the control wheel would not respond to clicks, so it was effectively shot.



My next player was an iPod Mini, which I've had for a year and a half. No problems whatsoever. Recently added a Shuffle to the mix, for the gym. Again, no problems.



Hate to kick a company when its down (and out), but I sure won't miss Rio... they wasted my money, so I went with a company that didn't. Sorry, Rio.

[Flid @ Jan 17th 2006 5:37AM]

Ermmmm... Apple have been in the "game" for a fair few years now, with clear market leading sales, and massive profits... and yet they still haven't actually "developed" the player in any other way that hardware? There were FM add-ons for the iPod years ago. This isn't new. They just tell you its new and you believe them.



The biggest thing that Rio had going for them was GAPLESS. Y'know, the opposite thing to the annoying split second unwanted and downright annoying silence in between tracks when you're listening to *any* other portable digital audio player (excluding Sony's atrac of course).



I love my iPod, but it lacks in many MANY ways.

[Dr Doom @ Jan 17th 2006 7:03AM]

Bruce M, you're talking nonsense. Yes, 'dancing crackheads' do work. We're not living in the 1950s anymore - an ad doesn't show a man in a suit holding a product and telling the consumer how great it is with a catchy jingle at the end. And as for saying that it must be good because it's popular??? That's a naive point of view. The Pussycat dolls top the charts and sell thousands of records - does that make them good? Of course not. Marketing works in mysterious ways and in fact, it's something that Rio didn't pay nearly enought attention to. Ever seen an ad for a Rio player?

[pawn @ Jan 17th 2006 9:25AM]

I can't believe there's so many people hawking the iPod in this thread. You guys obviously don't understand why so many people were excited for this player, but I'm gonna tyr and break it down for you:



1) Size - The fifth gen iPods are small too, but had this made its original scheduled release it would have been far tinier than anything on the market at the time.



2) Gapless - Even after all those iPod revisions the thing still leaves gaps, and Apple has no intention of fixing this 'feature' of their DAP.



3) Format support - Apple's dragged their feet on this one since the inception of the iPod



4) Audio quality - Everyone with half decent ears knows the iPod has been plagued by audio issues (esp. earlier models). The Karma still competes with modern players, and when you factored in the parametric EQ it can still blow most of them away (no, all those presets on your iPod are not 'just as good').



5) Developer support - Rio was excellent about releasing firmware updates long after the player was put to market, adding useful features never mentioned in the original specs. Just last week their last update for the normal Carbon was released unofficially, adding true playlisting features and more.



Ultimately, Rio released DAPs for people that wanted something more than a stylish white and chrome brick. Something which can properly play a Pink Floyd album (or whatever gapless media), and doesn't lock you into poorly performing DRM laced tracks (aac). You may be happy with your "pretty" iPod, but its crippled interface (compare the Karma's playlisting features (RioDJ and dynamic playlists, meaning you don't need to create an OTG playlist to have an OTG playlist) and you might understand what I'm talking about), but those of us more interested in music playback will shed a tear for what could have been, and hope that Sigmatel can find some people to put out some excellent players with their chipset/firmware packages.

[Silver @ Jan 17th 2006 9:36AM]

"This was a story about an unreleased rio player, why did you bother making a comment?"



Well, japroach, why is it any time a story is released about a non-iPod DAP, all the iPod haters come out of the woodwork foaming at the mouth about lemmings and idiots and iPods-don't-do-this blah blah blah? Hmmm? It's sad. Really.

[Guse @ Jan 17th 2006 12:26PM]

Wow, I got so bored with reading these comments I now realize that very few will even read mine. I own a Rio Carbon purchased brand new on eBay for 99$. The 5GB Carbon was 150$ cheaper than a 4GB iPod. I went on a group trip with some folks and there were a few iPods in the house. After 4 days, 2 of the iPods were broken and all of them were out of power. I charged that carbon up before I left and made it home with power to spare. iPod sHmipod... The touch/scroll wheel dealy is the only, repeat, only thing the iPod has on other DAP's. The EQ, seamless album playback, and menu are features supported by Rio for the sophisticated audio listener, not just some snot nosed brat who's daddy can spend $400 at Best Buy (sucker).

[Marc Brooks @ Jan 17th 2006 12:33PM]

Hey look! A remote control port for the never-to-be-released remote. Seems familiar.

[AJ @ Jan 17th 2006 2:22PM]

I had (and still have) a Rio flash player. It was very solid. Although it didn't have a color screen, and has long been out of production (you can buy one on eBay for $5!), it never failed to impress me. The battery life was excellent, and despite being in a hot car for hours at a time and a few 5 feet drops, it is still in tact.



It said 30 hours of battery life for that thing! Considering the iPod lacks even 10 (don't contradict me, I've used an iPod), that is really crazy. I think I would've bought one just for that reason. Perhaps it isn't the best looking player, at least from the pictures, but I think that thing had potential.

[boogie_doggie @ Jan 17th 2006 3:28PM]

I had the 2G, 3G and 4G iPods, and then bought a Karma. I can appreciate the merits of the iPod, but it's feature set honestly does not compare. Over on dapreview.net the prescence of Sigmatel with working Rio-based devices was greeted with near ecstasy... there's a lot of people watching these developments very closely, Rio/Sig should leave the mass market to Apple and go after the gearhead-audiophile crowd (I'm a proud card-carryibg member), that's where their players get the most love.

[mrk @ Jan 17th 2006 4:55PM]

"Well, japroach, why is it any time a story is released about a non-iPod DAP, all the iPod haters come out of the woodwork foaming at the mouth about lemmings and idiots and iPods-don't-do-this blah blah blah? Hmmm? It's sad. Really."

Yeah, because we obviously started saying "iPod sucks" before people commented that it was worse than the pod.

Oh yes... pawn... will you have my man-babies?

[Anthony @ Jan 26th 2006 1:05AM]

I loved my Rio 500 dearly - it was solidly built and hackable enough to change fonts (!) in and boot-up animatons, which was way cool. The 600 I bought aftewards froze up on certain songs and slowly broke apart. :/

It's sad to see these guys go.